It is easy to customize a web page as it can be done by merely altering a modular file. Thats not the case. Many divs require way too much css to make it worth your while. The complicated css wasnt a requirement. I really like using CSS for formatting text, lists, positioning, etc. It could mean one less page they get to crawl on your site. What the css vs tables debate is really about is whether or not to structure a web page with tables or divs. The programing language world is complicated for non-developers and beginners. Sorry I didnt reply sooner John. CSS or cascading sheet may be a text-based coding language that specifies the website formats and the way a site communicates with web browsers. I am currently a consultant with an enormous company that forces us to support IE6. Its a great way to learn. At least my code doesnt use tables for the site layout. It is in lists of links in one column and descriptions in another column, with more data in a third or forth column. Sure. While you probably wont appreciate hearing this, the more likely cause for the problems you see is your own knowledge of css. In this case, it is almost impossible to get CSS only to render this as desired, either the width or the height of the side banner will be wrong, or the background image will appear to disappear or not be long enough, or be too long, or the content will bleed over into the side banner if you change the width of the browser. 8.1 Introduction to Style Sheets . There are also dozens of other methods I didnt mention. Appreciate it and I think this post being more recent is the more relevant one. I think grids are great, but I dont think you should create them using html tables for the reasons I mentioned in this post. I speak English fluently. Compared with traditional tables, web pages using Div + CSS technology are more friendly for search engine indexing. Home. Wow. Theres a huge error in logic in your argument. I cant tell any discernable speed difference between a table layout and a CSS layouts load time. Chris your first comment seemed to indicate you preferred tables over css. Its is also much quicker to use tables, and hey, yeah, once in a while it is nice to be able to glance at your code in a wysywig and actually see what it looks like. Same thing with the issue youre having with css. As we add more to the pages design the table complexity continues to increase compared to divs. I dont agree with their reasoning, but it is there. It will work equally as well, and only take seconds to accomplish. very nice article, good job, i wanted to add my comment based on my own humble experience.. CSS is like a a sword, once you master it, you could be a powerful warrior, and if you truly go advanced with it, youll never ever consider tables once you start writing complicated web apps, that consist of heavy javascript code for the layout, youll feel how important CSS is.. He takes a layout done in tables and works to change it to divs and css. Ive linked to this article in a post as part of a project Im doing on web design styles. It helps us to determine the changes within the position of web elements who are there on the page. That flow is what needs to be eliminated! You are here: Thats not an apples to apples comparison. My old webpage is ugly (www.dragora.com) so I started to develop a new page (www.dragora.com/newindex1.asp). How to use CSS in different dimension (CSS-in-JS) ? WebSome of the advantages and disadvantages of database forms are as follows: Advantages Data entry is less error-prone A number of predefined formats are available for use Usually, all the data fields for a single record appears in one screen Forms are customizable (compared to data sheet views) Forms can include instructions for data entry Then there is hours of adjust here, adjust there, view, adjust . I totally thought this debate was long dead, but hid a road block and was procrastinating so I thought I would google random stuff and found this. CSS is better in both theory and practice. Tables/grids (the shape) are the holy grail of layouts. Divs dont require complicated css. Menu. CSS, CSS 1 up to CSS3, result in creating of confusion among web browsers. Again its probably not a huge difference either way at this point. I think it makes them easier to move them around on a single page. Columns of equal height? Believe me, the clean code you talk about it gone. If your visitors are using IE you need to support IE and whether its the code or the browser that gets things wrong is irrelevant. Using css to layout a site is the most difficult part, but it does come together with a little practice. With many sites (big, e commerce sites for example) having many different sections of text and images and other media throughout a page the code just grows and grows, taking browsers longer to load page content. However please dont imply that css cant work for old sites or makes it more difficult to work on an existing table driven site. Now lets get to some of the myths on both sides that keep this debate going. Back in 2003, I gave my presentation, Why tables for layout is stupid, at Seybold (http://blog.hotdesign.com/2008/10/what-is-css/) about the advantages of CSS layouts. Then, I can see how they styled it in the source code. However. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/. It helps to form spontaneous and consistent changes. At most the html would require a single class or id extra. CSS (divs) are better for SEO Search engines dont care one bit if the code behind your page uses tables or divs. Outside of some special occasions you should never have to resize a div or its margin and padding because you updated the text inside of it. And that, in my view, should be the only thing that qualifies you to comment on the number of passes the browser makes when rendering a page. To remove double borders, take a look at the example below. If you originally decide all your h1 tags should be blue and later want them to be red its certainly easier to have your h1 style sitting in a single css file. The third problem with tables is in how browsers render them. Personally, if I could instantly convert a design into HTML, Id do it. Sure if in some Mexican sweat shop, 5 year olds were parsing pages for Google that may be true, but parsing text is as basic as programming gets other than typing hello world on the screenI really doubt thats an issue for Google, or Yahoo spider programmers. There are a lot of myths propagated by both sides in this debate, but once you cut through most of them the argument really boils down to a few things. As far as it being easier for you to code it with a table now, thats probably true. I can understand your frustration, but its not the fault of css. Its easier because youre more familiar with using tables. 1. Its not going to bother me at all. I dont understand why it would be easier to update content using CSS more so than tables. The defaults only come into play if you dont specifically tell the browser what to use. Nice presentation by the way. bootstrap requires a container, row, and something equal to a td but I cant recall which. I can bring myself to use tables, but css severly restricts my deisgns because of cross-browser compatibility. I do think there is an advantage for div based techniques for high traffic sites and I will continue to expand my knowledge of div based layouts for this reason. The main advantage of CSS is that style is applied consistently across variety of sites. I understand people have old code and sometimes they just need to fix it. Web designers who take the time to learn css dont have the same problems youre seeing. However, I dont think thats the main reason to choose a css layout over a table-based layout. I have tried to learn css with online tutoring (lynda.com, http://www.w3schools.com/w3c/w3c_css.asp, etc.) Required fields are marked *. 2)Less code?No.Comparably,table-based websites are having much less lines of code to write.Because,you are also writing the CSS,and its always not one file.So,code is much much less. Having done programming I understand reusability of code and the ease of making changes in one place for large websites, but this is little good with small sites. (10-20 is most common.) The one that continues using tables is because it does not dominate or does not know CSS. The more professional sites are *usually* built using div/css scripting and now table cells as most sites require absolute positioned content which most sites are not using. I certainly havent seen anything to support the validity of these remarks. When people are having trouble getting a css layout to look the same across browsers its usually more to do with the skills of the designer than with css itself. I support reasonable use of tables for backward compatibility. You can either explicitly set the values when browsers are behaving differently or use a css reset file like the ones from Eric Meyer or Yahoo. Conclusion. 2. I think anyone that codes by hand knows that CSS/div is easier to work with in that way. So Ill be more explicit. Fair points and thanks for making this an intelligent conversation. What I will say though is that every person Ive ever met who was equally capable at using both css and tables chooses to use css. Thanks Rami and interesting analogy. users dont give a about codes im all in it for the designs. Hopefully I can clear up a few things in this post and let you make your own decision. CSS based design is unquestionably superior to table layout, but due to sheer laziness the practice of table design has held on. Tables should be used when a bunch of blocks need to depend on each other, like maintain the same height, or to cooperate in filling their parents width. As far as the speed issues, Google didnt really talk about load times affecting ranking until after I wrote this post. With the 4 methods if its important to a site to support older versions of IE then sure dont choose the method which might not work with those versions. There is no drag and drop anymore. Advantages of OS Maps (1) Shows static long-term features. And if I gave offense at all as well I also apologize. Thats not meant as a knock against you. I find it hard to believe that anyone who honestly knows how to develop a site well with both tables and divs would ever choose to use tables. Any styles defined in the internal and external style sheets are overridden by inline styles. I have an unorthodox, perhaps unstandardized approach to web design. Now I barely have to test my layouts in multiple browsers because Ive learned how to keep them consistent across browsers. : Get certifiedby completinga course today! Your tutorials are really only half-done and stop at the parts where css begins breaks down. Not so much about being able to have your changes update across the site, but on the single page itself. All indications are the speed thing is a minor part of Googles algorithm at the moment. CSS handles the design and feel a part of an internet page. Im still a little inexperienced to style the whole design in CSS, though. I find that if I have to spend more than a 5 hours trying to figure out the combination of CSS statements to achieve the result I want on just one page, and I can do it in a table (a VERY SIMPLE table), in less than 15 minutes, then the dream of CSS has not been achieved yet. If there is anyone that actually codes full table-based websites by hand I would be curious to know what reasoning they have for not switching. If youre asking about the former then Id say go ahead and use a table when youre presenting data in columns and rows. Learning how to use Dreamweaver is not the same as learning to write the code. Saying things like, all people who use tables are quite frankly is absurd. If you have a high volume site, it might be a good reason to consider using divs. @Dave I think were getting squished with the replies to each other so Im starting a new comment. Its huge. That would be a debate between using css or html attributes for presentation. Theyre much easier to use now. Ive heard the argument that reduced code helps with SEO, with people saying that too much code makes it harder for Google to parse. Not something you need for a two column layout of course. I think making your structural elements independent is the better option. However, the industry moved on from them a long time ago. 1. Just for the entirety of your layout. Tables are like having the blocks bolted together and needing all blocks to be bolted before the structure itself holds together. Regarding flexibility, I can see your point about how divs/css can make it possible to flip columns around by only making changes to a css file, and have those changes propagate to many files. The limiting factors isnt the language, its my ability to use the language. Right now its easier for you to code certain layouts with tables. Time is money. Using display: table-cell would work fine now that everyone uses IE8 or over, but the floating div folks insist on emulating a grid with floating blocks anyway. Like others have pointed out, fixing display bugs related to just about any css based layout often takes entire release cycles, just to get ruined even more by some other dopy designer. Funny. Generally you wouldnt be setting heights on most divs allowing them to expand and contract based on the text. Return on Investment 4. Everything should be able to reflow the way you want with css. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. Youll have more control over how your page displays with divs that can aid in how a screenreader sees your content, but again you can create equally accessible pages using either approach. I dont offer any advantage per se, on tables over divs. It separates style from content (editable/un-editable). WebAdvantages of CSS3 CSS3 provides a consistent and precise positioning of navigable elements. That leads to easier maintenance, more freedom in design, and quicker load times. Also anytime you come across a site with a layout you like copy the source code and when you have time study it to see if you can understand how they did what they did. (Yes, I like clean code too.) It amazes me that some folks still use tables for layout in this day and age. I hear you Bill. That you had a problems on a site you were developing doesnt mean my tutorials arent accurate. Otherwise, I just appreciate when someone makes the website function well enough for me to get to the content Im looking for. Instead you chose to insult me and the tutorials here. I try making 100% css layouts and they never are cross browser effective, so I resort back to tables and I never have issues. Granted its not the kind of change youre likely to make, but as an example it shows the greater flexibility and control you have in developing with divs. My primary UI guy is a CSS ideologue and spends half his time fighting with stylesheets to make it work in every browser. Discuss the advantages and disadvantages of using a table and CSS formatting for displaying the fitness centers hours and fees on the website. WebJavaScript advantages Fast speed: JavaScript is executed on the client side thats why it is very fast. Wish me luck. If youre not creating HTML e-mails, or unless you have some overriding need to have part of your page scale because of the amount of content on other parts of your page, theres no reason to use tables for layout. You pointed out that table cells dont work independently. What happens if it goes 1 pixel beyond the the available size? Graphics are easier in CSS3, thus making it easy to make the site appealing. I show this above in the post. If I tired to reply to your comment in Spanish it would take me hours, even days, to put together a few coherent sentences. Again DreamWeaver is taking care of this for you. I find that unfortunate, as someone who caught the tail end of the table era I find it much more difficult to maintain a website which uses tables (because of my own lack of experience with tables I suppose) than to administer a website which uses a CSS layout. I thought the debate was or should have been dead a few years ago. Consistency. it could also be your own code or more likely that your code and my code arent working well other. Learning at write CSS layouts can be tricky, especially if you become familiar with usage tables, but here's why CSS is your best programming bet. This is one of the reasons why there are people who prefer tables instead of using this kind of trickery and black magic to fake the appearance of what tables can do without all the extreme measures. You can separate style and structure with both css and tables. Eventually it works, but at what cost? Tables and divs are the structure. You are a part of an ever growing majority. I believe many developers only read do not use tables, missing the later half of the sentence for layouts. I didnt create the overall frame to the conversation. Everything else is really irrelevant. divs vs tables RIGHT! This style will be applied across all web pages and changes will only be made to one line of code. Search engines are interested in your content, not your code. I promise Im not laughing. Ive been a designer for over 20 years and been using tables for layout for 13 years. The columns of a newspaper are used to guide the reader along the layout. I also believe the opposite, theres no point using table rendering if you DO want them to be independent. It sounds like Im being lumped in with other people who are making grand claims. http://www.taylor-graphics.net/eye_clinic/css/index.css. In the best case scenario youd be adding at least another table cell to get another block of information compared to adding another div for another block of information, which would grow our code equally. A div is a more generic container that doesnt impose any structure on the content within. There are many more people who dont have those problems. Itll probably be a week or two before I have the time to really look, but if you email me the code I will look. Youre welcome to send me an email of fill out the contact form and we can talk. Not exactly the kind of thing thats going to make me want to help you/. CSS is a standard across the board. I avoid tables and table-cell in almost all layouts to avoid ridicule, but deep down I truly believe that anything else is convoluted and meant to create more jobs for web developers. If anything I think the code would be almost equal and the differences insignificant. Did you read the post? However there are other methods to abstract changes that need to be applied to more then one file into a single file. I think youre asking legitimate questions and Ill do my best to answer. A few years ago I wrote a post on how to create a 2 column layout with css. Sometimes they want the elements in the list to cooperate to fill the container while sometimes they want the width of each element to be dependent on the content of those individual elements. Im not sure why people think it takes a lot of time to get things working cross browser. I fought this very same battle using tables back in the 90s. If you know what youre doing you might need a few lines of css total to fix IE bugs. That should tell you something. A div-based layout is: That might not seem like a lot, but just those three things are enough to make a div based approach better to a table based approach. John Taylor With equal column heights, yes its easier to create them with tables than with divs alone, though if you look at the last of the 4 methods I described youll see its not hard to create them with divs and css and it still uses less code than using tables. Divs cant do what tables can as simple as that. However, you can build a great site using tables and a poor site using css. Some times you just need to get it done and move on. Unfortunately, by using tables I think increased load time and perhaps SEO unfriendliness of my code are stumbling blocks to my future success as a web designer. Home. I dont think the choice is about shape though. Im amazed this conversation still exists yet it seems every few weeks I see another post proclaiming we should all go back to using tables for site layout. Spanish is a beautiful language that many people use to communicate quickly and effectively each and every day. I use it and love it. Once to understand the structure and another time to present it. The similar change affects on all the browsers. Luckily, modern sites have actually become pretty basic. This post is framed the way it is, because its a reaction to posts framing the topic as html tables are better than css. I never said I prefur tables. Theres simply less code to create a div than there is a table with a row and cell. One debate Im honestly curious about is the best way to go about table type content with CSS, such as using the actual table properties, using display: inline, using float: left, etc wheres that write up? Cascading sheet not only simplifies website development, but also simplifies the maintenance as a change of one line of code affects the whole web site and maintenance time. Justin, apparently I named this post well, since the debate never seems to die. Its usually one or two things that may cause a problem and those problems are easily fixed. The phone number and search can either be wrapped together in another div thats floated to the right or they could each be floated to the right independently. Where layout is concerned though, I think the cons of using tables outweigh the pros and so favor using css. A square peg and a round hole can both be perfect examples of each and yet not work well together. If I had stopped my study on the first day the table would have won by an equally small margin. This debate has been going on for years. CSS works differently on different browsers. Thats why theres more than one method in the post. Dont worry Im not taking your questions as a need to defend css. And yes it is true that you dont much need extra code to get things to work for IE. From what I can see most people who argue against css simply havent taken the time to learn to master it. I will use them to learn more about CSS. I wrote it to answer the question. (Dont laugh, my skills probably saved my job.) The posts arent just about the code, but I do provide the basic html and css I use now for a 3 column layout. I really like your saying Not doing something because it takes time to learn is laziness. Maybe its not feasible in your case, but it might be worth looking into. he argument is made by people comparing learning something new to learning something they already know well.. benefits to css 2. is full css faster 3. Could you send me a link to the page? Its the kind of thing that might move you from #8 to #7, but not from page 5 to the first page. It could be because of my familiarity with css, but I dont think the last method is hard to understand. This debate is mainly from those who code by hand I would think. Ive done that for people before. There are SOME layouts that to use entirely CSS requires an inordinate amount of extremely messy code to represent. Affecting ranking until after i wrote a post on how to use entirely css requires an inordinate amount of messy... 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