True enough. Oh, and neither Gregory played any part at "Nicea", Nazianzen played a short role at Constantinople in 381. 7:32-33). 1 Corinthians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ all will be made alive. You are simply ignoring these. Therefore, this valley, this Gehenna, was a detestable place to God's people. That the valley was just outside the city of Jerusalem made it an appropriate symbol for those excluded from divine blessing. So just imagine the hundreds of thousands of squirmy, wormy maggots living there, eating the rotting refuse. If you are a leader, want to be a leader, or can spell the word leader, this message is for you. OR, the age-during life with Christ could be just that, since in 1 Corinthians it talks about Christ giving up his kingdom to the Father at the end of time. Of course, since it was a garbage dump, it was necessary to keep the garbage burning in order to reduce the stench and to limit the number of flies and rats. I'm sure there will come forth a brilliant solution to this apparent contradiction that will make it disappear. Scholars have long claimed that Gehenna was a garbage dump where fires were burned. "With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimchi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse . This gate in the southern part of the wall lead to the Hinnom Valley. Almost every major commentary on Matthew that mentions Gehenna also spoke of the garbage dump. So "time" as we know it is not eternal. It says it is "not quenched". If it was not condemned, it was because it wasn't widespread and there were more pressing issues. 66:24 says "The THEY SHALL GO FORTH". If all men could be saved, it would be great, but we are long past this (let alone all creatures). (v.23). In the other dozen or so, to get the idea of "eternal" you have to read it into the words "aion" and "aionian". 20:10. They will long to die, but death will flee from them. The Hebrew word is used in relation to people. There is no mention in the tons upon tons of writings we have from Church Fathers, Christian and Jewish writers, or even secular writers for that matter. The only exception was the 5th Ecumenical Council (around 550), which posthumously condemned not just (some or all) teachings of Theodorus and of Origen but condemned them personally. Well before the time of Jesus, the valley was also used as a refuse heap. Hades, the Gray Waste of NE Gehenna, the Bleak Eternity of NE, LE The Nine Hells (of Baator) LE Acheron, the Infinite Battlefield of LN, LE Mechanus, the Clockwork Nirvana of LN Arcadia, the. [however,] there is no evidence for this claim; it can be traced to a commentary on the book of Psalms written by Rabbi David Kimhi in the early thirteenth century CE. It is never connected to any words denoting the length of time it is to be inflicted. The doors were certainly locked as long as the wedding feast endures. My time, unfortunately, is limited too. The quotation begins in verse 22. It is one of a number of alignment-based Outer Planes that form part of the standard Dungeons & Dragons ( D&D ) cosmology, used in the Planescape , Greyhawk , and some editions of . Yes, that Origen took the idea of universal salvation to its extreme (though it is unclear how far he actually believed this to be factual or whether he was simply engaging in an experiment of thought) and it was this extreme form that was shocking to many Christians. "Saint" doesn't mean infallible, you know! You simply over-reading certain passages. You clearly havened thought the whole matter through and would trade in salvation for 20th century sensibilities. Saying "God is eternal" is chickening out. Matthew 25) of the "blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" and of the "cursed into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.". But that was the exception and in violation of the principles. Don't stress about any of the Bible's judgment language happening at any time after the first century! The planned facility closures, along with a marketing office, could likely lead to the loss of 88 jobs, said a spokesperson. I would look at a phrase like this and wonder how anyone who didn't want to be deceived could think that it was talking about anything less than the rest of eternity: . That part of the verse could be left off and the last part of the verse would be sufficient to finish answering why the rich man's request could not be granted. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh.. New garbage was piled on top of the old decaying garbage: rotting fish, slimy vegetation, decaying human refuse of every imaginable sort. "the worm never dies" how do you turn never into "sometime in the future"? [Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. Is that decree retroactive? A Christian in error is still a Christian.]. He is talking about things that detrimental to us, if you want to say so, "the flesh". Residents sometimes called it the "valley of the sewer" or "the valley of the pagans." By Jesus' time, the Greek translation of Hinnom Valley, gehenna, became a synonym for hell. Even if they are used to describe God as "the aionian God" they do not have to mean eternal. Rome? During the reign of King Josiah (640-609 B.C. Concerning this valley, I've heard that the blood of sacrificed Passover lambs ran down this hillside. I am disturbed by the anger and name-calling of the resident I am sure he will give the usual excuses. Chief among the modern ideas surrounding Gehenna is that of a smouldering garbage dump south of Jerusalem where perpetual fires consumed the city waste and the dead bodies of criminals thrown into it. Explore the mistranslations and actual meanings of eternal and hell (aion, gehenna/hades/tartaroo/sheol). He writes: I consulted over a dozen study Bibles on Matthew 5:22 and no less than eight of them made a reference to the rubbish heap. By Jesus' time, the Valley of Hinnom was a full fledged garbage dump with its wretched rotting aromas, howls of scavenging wild animals, and smoldering and perpetual fires. Why were heretics (if you believe that universal salvation is heresy)allowed to do this? The websites I had read did not mention all of this, it seems that they were trying to say that it wasn't his teaching on the final salvation of all men that got him in trouble, it was all the stuff that Origen tacked on to that. "WHEN your sisters, Sodom and her daughters, return to their former state, and Samaria and her daughters return to their former state, then you and your daughters will return to your former state. [2] The valley is also known by the name Gehinnom ( G-Hnnm, lit. After the Jews returned from the Babylonian exile, the valley became a garbage dump where anything considered unclean was placed. If you look at the political and religious power struggles going on at Constantinople it is apparent that the doctrine of eternal hell was used to scare people and get them to submit to those who had control of the church, so they could hold their kingdom together. And as far as Rabbi Kimhi goes, note that even he stated the alleged dump of Gehenna became an analogy for the judgment of the wicked, which demonstrates that even the first writer to make this connection saw it to be an analogy for the place that the wicked will be judged. (the Romans emphasized justice and were very PROUD of their legal system) I had heard sermons for 40 years, had read the bible cover to cover several times, went to bible studies, listened to countless teaching tapes, and in all that time no one, myself included, noticed any contradiction between Jude 1:7 and Ezekiel 16:55. Romans 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all. Theres nothing before that. PDF As for Isaiah 66:24, it cannot be referring to eternity, as v.23 which is in the same context states that "from one new moon to another and from one sabbath to another all flesh shall to worship before Me, says the Lord." You are right about Origen's apocatastasis getting him in trouble. [.] ["Who is it that is going to go out of the city and look at the worm-eaten, burning bodies? Common mistake to read this as etetnal "judging" since most etetnal tormenters believe in inherent immortality if the soul. It is also the location where bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and animals would be dumped. And can we actualle be cartain about the identity of Sodom and her daughters? Why consider them 'saints'? Is. It smoldered there beneath the surface, incinerating the rotting, smelly garbage. When Jesus spoke of Gehenna, his hearers would think of the valley of rotting, worm-infested garbage, where the fire always burned, smoke always lingered, and if the wind blew just right, a smell that sickened the sense wafted in the air. (pp. He just told his audience that if there is part of your body that causes you to stumble, cut it off. the creed), negative condemnations ("Whosover says . The breath of the Lord, like a torrent of brimstone, kindles it. In the case of life age-during, that life is with God, who is eternal. Did Isaiah lie? One question to ask about the parable of the rich man and Lazarus Why the need for a gulf to keep those in Abraham's bosom from going to the other side where there was torment? But if they happened to return next week, would that mean that sinners from Sodom would not be punished for their sins? Gehenna is the Greek version of the biblical word Gehinnom or Gei Hinnom (the valley of Hinnom Joshua 15:8). The rest of the chapter goes on to reassure Israel that they will not all be killed in this judgment. Is that decree retroactive?". And why should it? Gehenna In Hebrew Scriptures After the Baylonian exile (6 th cent BCE) A garbage dump in a deep narrow valley outside the wall of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning to consume the refuse. So your attitude "If the Lord had wanted to communicate this" is not only arrogant towards him (he chose his words as he saw fit, not you) but also false: he did clearly communicate this. Located at the midpoint of the Lower Planes, it was a plane of evil balanced between Law and Chaos. Gehenna, more commonly known as the Valley of Hinnom, Valley of the Son of Hinnom or Valley of the Children, is an actual valley in the city of Jerusalem. Finally, you are also mistaken about time and the eternal life. After the ages, there will be no need to describe Him to anyone because all will know Him fully, just as they also are known by Him now. At least there is no evidence of any other fires having been kept up in the valley; as has sometimes been supposed(Biblical Researches, vol. In Hebrew, the Valley of Hinnom was 'Ge Hinnom' which transliterated into Greek became 'Gehenna.' Because of its history of infant sacrifice and idol worship, the area was associated with desecration, abominable fires . There are quite a few verses in the gospel expressing the same idea in different words, e.g. The case may have been overstated, but may not be completely wrong. Still, a city the size of Jerusalem needed a dump. As for the lost, per words of Jesus and apostles, they will die (wages of sin)/be destroyed/perish. It doesn't say whether anyone would do that. It was Jesus who said, "And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life" (Matt 25:46). The Gehenna Valley was thus a place of burning sewage, burning flesh, and garbage. Does no one know about the millennium, a period of teaching, after which satan is loosed for a season to test those that followed him in the first earth age. Hell, detail in Pieter Bruegel the Elder's Dull Griet, 1561 . If the trash dump was burning or not - I don't know. I doubt I will convince you of anything and I don't have time to continue a running debate, but every time I go through this process, I learn something so it has been worth it. With the common sense which often characterizes Jewish commentators, Kimhi says that the place was the dump of the city, where fires were always kept burning to destroy the refuse; therefore the judgment of the wicked is parabolically called Gehenna.But from the Biblical references the place appears to have nothing physically objectionable about it; in contrast to its contemporary condition Jeremiah prophesied that it would one day be called Valley of Slaughter (The Holy City and Gehenna, JBL 27/1 [1908], 34). Marcellus was important at Nicea (325) and still condemned a heretic later, with even one line in the Creed directed against him. Neovia group's Profile, Revenue and Employees. 66:24) and later with a place of judgment by fire without any special connection to Jerusalem (see, for example, 1 Enoch 27:1ff., 54:1ff., 63:3-4, and 90:26ff) (Jesus and the Kingdom of God, 376-77). When they fought, their teeth would make a gnashing sound. You will forgive me that I will not go and read through all the parables but if I have immediately three springing to mind that teach a final, unchangeable judgement than I don't need to have dozens others agree with that or read anything into them. Hell, Gehenna the garbage dump. How does this work? In the context, it's a "causal" from (could even be translated as "by" as this Greek preposition is translated elsewhere in the NT) not a "spacial" from see 2 Thes. 'Valley of the son of Hinnom' [1]) is a historic valley surrounding Ancient Jerusalem from the west and southwest. "Even when the term "aionian" is applied to God Himself, this does not mean it is describing Him as eternal. God refers to it as the "valley of slaughter" in Jeremiah 7:31 and in Jeremiah 19:2-6, a place of ruin and disaster.. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Seems a little disproportionate to me. Specifically, Bailey states: [Kimchi] maintained that in this loathsome valley fires were kept burning perpetually to consume the filth and cadavers thrown into it. If not there, where? And again, the worms and fire are figurative the real "punishment" (actually not so much a punishment but the consquence of one's decision) is having missed the last opportunity to be part of God's kingdom. It was because Gehenna outside the city of Jerusalem was the place where the bodies of criminals were burned and when the . In order to do that, the person must be either present or at least given the opportunity. The New Jerusalem will contain people body and soul living in space in time, with God in happiness for all eternity. Thanks for the article, I have always wanted to see some evidence for calling associating Gehenna with a burning trash heap. Reading these posts made me happy to be a conditionist! These words can be used to describe something that is eternal, but this meaning has to be derived from the object they are used in conjunction with. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. "Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump". Gehenna, also called Gehinnom, abode of the damned in the afterlife in Jewish and Christian eschatology (the doctrine of last things). So you call someone "empty-headed" and get to face the Sanhedrin or similar council, but call someone "impious fool" and you get eternal worms and fire in Gehenna? But this doesn't give you the right to twist his words. If that seems unfair in your eyes, so be it . I have long wanted to do a little work to debunk the endlessly repeated myth that the Hinnom Valley (Gehenna) was a perpetually burning trash dump. The thing is, that as the "aion" during which the punishment takes place is coming to an end,DEATH WILL BE SWALLOWED UP BY LIFE! The pictures on this website are copyrighted and may be used only with permission. Then he quotes Peter Head, G. R. Beasley-Murray, and Lloyd Bailey in tracing the origin of this notion to Rabbi David Kimchi in AD 1200. And just like all garbage dumps, there were worms. Wild animals fought over scraps of food along the edges of the heap. 1 Corinthians 15 you overreading again. Why would anyone, especially people who are redeemed and survive the coming of the Lord to judge all flesh (v.16) want to go out to look at corpses full of worms and burning? That wouldn't happen until the 6th century. A shorter one, posted at Grace to You: Is Hell Really Endless? This message has a warning for everyone today, but especially Christian leaders. If you don't like it, go and take something else but don't put your thoughts into Christ's mouth. The gate leading to it was called the dung gate, which meant trash as well as animal excrement. It is a deep and narrow ravine on the South West side of Jerusalem - first mentioned in Joshua 15:8 and in 18:16 where it says that the boundary line between the tribes of Judah . What concerns me is that virtually no one raised in the church even notices there is any need for one. I don't see why a citizen of God's city should go out, but if they did, they might well see that. Where is the record of an uproar over them? This is then used as an example of a future judgment. Rate: Ohio Serpent Mound in the News Though a duration of time is the most common use of the word, just as with most any word, there can be different meanings depending on the context. Everlasting is only aionios in Greek, so that everlasting hell becomes only age-during garbage dump, the age being not 2011 but just AD 70. [Worms and fire normally die and go out (no need for nitpicking about how going out is not being quenched) this is why Jesus raises the point that these worms and this fire (which is obviously figurative language) do NOT DIE and do NOT GO OUT. So, sulfur and sulfurous rocks know as 'brimstone' were . That is not a wonderful promise, that is a concept more horrific and disturbing than anything any horror writer could come up with. For this reason, it became the city dump. if you use the NIV version of the Bible the words "and shut out" are not in the Greek, rather just the preposition "from"). All in all it points to a figurative description rather than a literal. The name Sha'ar Ha'ashpot appears in the Book of Nehemiah 3:13-14. Romans 5 speaks of "condemnation to all men" but of "the many will be made righteous" not "all will made righteous". No matter how many times people say this and it has become street truth there is no evidence that there was a town dump outside Jerusalem in the first century. 1 [1841], 404-5). (And note: it's a parable, a story with a lesson, not necessarily a description of actual conditions in the after-life, especially when you become too technical. One of the immediate problems of any hermeneutics about Gehenna is the religious . That's why Jerome translated it aeternam in Latin as well, because he knew what was implied by the Greek. But when the burning occured in such a valley, it left "dead bodies" for which the worms feasted on after the fire has destroyed them. Rob Bell takes the view in Love Wins that in Jesus' day Gehenna was the "city dump": "There was a fire there, burning constantly to consume the trash." It is a metaphor for the terrible consequences of rejecting "the good and true and beautiful life that God has for us". You brought up a very good point. He claims they are already undergoing it. "Are you referring to Origen? And he talks about those going this way because that is what the rich man asks for, for someone in heaven to come and alleviate his suffering. The "kingdom" of the Son will one day be turned over to the Father, and one of the epistles describes Jesus ruling it UNTIL all His enemies are put under His feet, so the parables about the kingdom and the wedding feast do not have to be describing the final state of "the Kingdom". The fire never went out. Will those who survive not be able to believe that they are really safe until they go out and look at the corpses of those who persecuted them and cast them out? The books of Kings and Chronicles tell us that a wealthy family named "Hinnom" owned a garden near Jerusalem which first King Ahaz, and then even more audaciously, King Manasseh turned into a place for burning children as a sacrifice to the god Molech. Gehenna as a Garbage Dump? Students may use the material on this site for school projects without permission. Thats the earliest reference we have to it- a Rabbi writing in the middle ages from Europe, not Israel, some 1100 years after Jesus was born. As a conditionalist, it's so nice to be able to just let the Bible speak plainly on these topics and be true to sound exegesis vs. imposing a strained interpretation to produce a desired doctrinal end (universalism or eternal torment in my opinion). All who accept it. It does not need to be quenched. On three occasions, gehenna is paired with (G4442, pyr, "fire") to read "hell fire" (Matthew 5:22; Matthew 18:9; Mark 9:47). ge) . [I have no clue what v.15 you are talking about so you can spare us that.]. If this is supposed to be a literal story about the suffering of an eternal "hell", there would be no need to explain the gulf as being necessary to prevent people from going from Abraham's bosom to the other side where there is torment. DIANA is a world leader in natural functional solutions for the food, pet food, nutraceuticals, aquaculture and cosmetics industries, and technology leader in plant cell culture, dedicated to the production of active ingredients for food, cosmetics and health. Check out Matt 25:46. The people in the surrounding areas dumped their trash in Gehenna, where it burned day and night. Their meaning cannot be derived from the "object" (which means you assumption that salvation can be eternal but punishment cannot) but from the context and the context in the passage referred above is a parallel structure. I haven't memorised all the conciliar canons and anathemata but I think neither have you. Gregory of Nyssa, another prominent teacher of universalism, drafted the part of the Nicean creed dealing with the trinity. Gehenna was not a perpetually burning trash dump." . So at that point there will be no more "aionian" life, it will be the same life as was lived in the "aion", but now it will continue outside of time. It is a reasonable deduction that there would be a dump and also reasonable that sometimes it would be alite and bodies throw there for shame. I had no idea that the Old Testament provides ample evidence for why the New Testament associates Gehenna with the abode of the damned. Maggots and worms crawled through the waste, and the smoke smelled strong and sickening ( Isaiah 30:33 ). Romans 11: "mercy to all" doesn't mean all accept it. No council ever did that! Paul is not only full of your verses but also full of admonition that salvation through grace doesn't mean a free ride for everybody. Even if I couldn't convince you, I am glad that you got something out of it. It doesn't matter what we think! UPDATE (4/29): The views of various scholars on the matter is presented in a new post. The chastisement is in reference to the Second Death, which can't be eternal if we are to take any of the passages about death itself being destroyed literally. You are right about the two Gregory's too. During Jesus' time, it was the city's garbage burner. Jerome is one, Christ may be another. Rev. Gehenna is the Jewish version of the "punishing afterlife" and the word refers to a valley just to the west side of the city of Jerusalem. His funeral pyre is deep and wide, with plenty of fire and wood. Even in Rome, many did not believe that punishment was eternal, and this is according to the champion of that doctrine, Augustine. The Pharisees commonly used the phrase 'endless timoria', which has nothing to do with bettering the victim, but the punishment only has the satisfaction and honor of the offended party in mind. As an Amazon Associate we earn from qualifying purchases. The BiblePlaces Blog provides updates and analysis of the latest in biblical archaeology, history, and geography. All will be reconciled with God in the fullness of time, at the end of the ages. Jude uses the fate of Sodom as recounted in Genesis as a type of divine punishment. The reason they didn't die out was because there was a constant supply of refuge being fed them. "You talk of the teaching of the "church" from the earliest days. You see, there is a difference between "material" heresy and "formal" heresy the former is error in contents, which might as well be unwitting, the latter is the obstinate insistance on such an error. Now I know why I never found any. Bell says, Gehenna, in Jesus's day, was the city dump People tossed their garbage and waste into this valley. The version I read was that after human sacrifice in the Hinnom valley ceased, it was then used as a rubbish dump. As Dale Allison puts it, "without ancient support." The fire never went out. Cog of Blood. Gehenna - The Prophetic Garbage Dump. But you making another mistake: so seem to think that if Jude and Ezekiel contradicted each other, such a contradiction could be solved by your screwed universalist theology. And nowhere did either Christ or any Apostle ever teach that. OR look at a verse like this and at least rethink the idea that worms die and fires are quenched . I also don't think we will be taking field trips out to look at burning and worm eaten bodies in eternity. Isaiah 30:33 (HCSB) Indeed! I cannot vouch for Jerome, his meaning or his wording. Isaiah 66:15-16 makes it pretty clear when the context of the rest of the chapter takes place. The parables all imply that the judgement is final, because "the door was locked" it is an unfounded assumption on your part that it would be opened again. One is kolasin, the other timoria. And he mentions those who would go from where he himself was to the other side where the torment was FIRST. 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